Sari  0:04  
I'm Sari Kimbell, and I've done just about everything in the food industry. I have helped hundreds of packaged food business entrepreneurs, and now I want to help you make your delicious dream a reality, whether you want to be successful at farmers markets, online or wholesale on the store shelves. Food Business Success is your secret ingredient. I will show you how to avoid an expensive hobby and instead run a profitable food business. Now let's jump in! 

Sari  0:38  
Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I am so glad you are with me today, and I think you are just going to love this series that is coming up, starting with this one, but I am doing a series all about sales. I know this is a place where so many of you guys get hung up. I've been playing around with this idea, kind of thinking through this visual in my mind, of when you are a packaged food business owner, you are wearing three distinct hats. You have the chef hat, which most of you are really good at, right? This is the passion and the innovation all around your product, right? The making of it, you're just so excited about it. This is, like, the reason why you're even here, right, is because of those product and then there is the CEO. This is the visionary. This is the one who is, like creating the plan and where you want to go and directing all of the employees, which is the third hat, the doer, the employee. And inside of that employee, there could be social media manager, there is like the bookkeeper, right? And there is the salesperson. And many of you do not have skills in sales, and that's totally fine, not a problem. However, to do a business well what you're doing, you are going to need to improve your sales. So that is what this next series is all about. I am bringing in people in the industry who are top at what they do. They are VPs of sales, or they are people my clients. I'm going to bring in a couple of my clients who are small businesses, who their owners, their founders, just happen to be really good at sales. I know that it's easy to be like, Well, some people are really good at it, and some people just aren't. And I am telling you that you can do all of it, and you can learn and grow into this. It doesn't have to be your zone of genius forever. But I do think it is really important that at the beginning, do not farm this piece out. I don't even know how you would farm it out as a small brand. It's very expensive to hire brokers or to bring in a sales team, so really, at the beginning, just expect that you are going to have to be a salesperson. You are going to have to put that sales hat on. No one is going to be able to represent your product, your brand, as well as you. And so I want you to embrace this area and trust that this is part of the entrepreneurship journey. This is where you need to be. And honestly, if you're not willing to do that, I would probably just consider, frankly, going to work for somebody else, bring your talents as a chef to another person's business. But if you are wanting to commit to being an entrepreneur, to wearing all of the hats, right, the chef, the employee and the CEO, then we just have to work on, how do we get better at sales? How do you lean into the discomfort of what you perceive as the icky sales piece?

Sari  4:30  
Because it's not that's a pretty small percentage of sales people who are actually icky. I'll just call it that. This is totally doable for you, and in fact, I want you to embrace it. You will look back one day and be like, remember when I was my own salesperson and I was approaching buyers and honestly, your passion, your vision in the product, is what's going. To sell it at the beginning, all right, when you're working with farmers market people or retail buyers, it's you, so you have to be able to master this. And then you can push it on to somebody else. Then you can bring in a sales team or hire a broker. The result I want from you taking in this information is not just to keep taking in more and more information. I know it gets easy. I know you guys sit there and go, Well, if I just knew x, if I just knew more, let me just take in more and more information. The point of these, this podcast, this series, is to get you into action. I want to get you with enough information that you have the tools, that you feel confident, like you have the basics right, that you know what you need to know, that you understand how the industry works, and you kind of have those tips and pointers, and we're going to talk about your mindset and some sales learnings that I've had. I'm not a natural born salesperson either, but really, there is a way to do it and do it in a way that feels good. Before we jump into today's interview with Dylan Shetley, which is so great. I think you guys are going to love him. I do want to give a shout out for a review. And I really want to encourage all of you, if you're getting value out of this podcast or the YouTube channel, please, please, please, head over to either my Facebook page, Food Business Success, or go to Apple the podcast and just go like you're on your phone, like you're searching for a new podcast, type in Food Business Success and then write a review. I would love to give you a shout out and reviews really help me grow the awareness and reach more people, just like yourself who want to launch and grow their dream packaged food business. 

Sari  7:14  
Cindy of Masi Masa, I love their stuff. Actually, I'm going to the farmers market shortly, and I'm going to look for her and pick up another package of her amazing seasoning blends. Cindy says there are some things you can figure out on your own, and others where it's better to bring in a pro. Sari is not only knowledgeable, she is fast, super helpful and patient. Highly recommend. Thanks so much, Cindy. Your products are amazing, and you guys should definitely go check her out. All right. With that, we are on to the interview with Dylan. 

Sari  7:58  
Really excited to have you on for this conversation about sales, and we're going to go in a lot of different directions with my guest today. So I'm really excited to welcome on Dylan shutley. And Dylan has worked in the food industry for just over 10 years, selling a number of established mid market and emerging CPG brands. He started his career as a food broker, which I know is going to be such a great conversation that we're going to have, and he was able to sell for hundreds of different CPG brands in a multitude of channels. He worked with companies that have been around for over 200 years, and then brand new emerging brands. And he's been able to establish and grow sales by building trusting relationships and telling a unique story that the brand has to offer. After moving to Colorado in 2017, Dylan has enjoyed getting involved in the food startup scene, and he is a board member of Colorado Food Works. He's actually my vice president, so we have the president and VP right here today, and he loves talking shop and collaborating with companies no matter the stage that they're in, so this is gonna be such a valuable conversation. Welcome Dylan!

Dylan  9:14  
Sari, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And just want to say, Sari, you've done an amazing job with Colorado Food Works and kind of taking it to our second generation, if you will, of the organization. So it's been an absolute joy to work with you. 

Sari  9:33  
Can't do it without you. We make a good team. So yeah. So we were just talking before we started recording, you were telling me about your experience being a broker. And you know, I think you know, we've talked about this, that a lot of the people listening here are brand new in the food industry. I work with a lot of people who are just getting started. And. They might just be thinking really simply along the lines of farmers markets or some wholesale but it's so fascinating. First of all, I'd love to just kind of hear your experience as a broker and what is you know, even define it for us. But then we're going to talk about sales channels and kind of open people's eyes to a lot of different opportunities that they maybe haven't even thought of. So, tell us a little bit more about that first role you said you first job out of college?

Dylan  10:30  
Yeah, no, definitely. So it was, it was really an interesting time for me, where straight out of college I wanted to go into sales. I wasn't really sure what kind of capacity that was going to be in. And a teammate of mine actually was working at this firm called Shankman and Associates. And this is a brokerage firm. And for those of you don't know what a brokerage firm is, is essentially think of any CPG company, food company that can't quite support a full sales team across the country or even regionally, what they can do is hire on a brokerage firm, and the brokerage firm essentially has a portfolio of brands that they go and sell to their existing relationships, whether that's a distributor, whether that's an end user, meaning a restaurant operator, or if it's a grocery store or a C store, they basically have the relationship and then present their portfolio to those customers and to those partners. So being a food broker kind of gives you a really nice portfolio and a nice diverse background of what you can show folks, and you can really kind of plug and play what makes sense for each customer. So it was a really enjoyable time, and I got to represent some really cool brands. And as you mentioned in the intro, you know, I've one of my most recent jobs. I was at a company called Sanjay, which has been around since 1804 so it's over 200 years old. It's incredible to think about their eighth generation owned and then I also represented brands like Tootsie Roll, which has been around for over 100 years. So you know, seeing and having visibility into what their sales procedures are, what their sales material are, what their go to market strategy is, and how it's evolved over the years been. It's a real insight that you have into these companies that have just kind of been that cash cow for so many years. It's been around. It's not going anywhere, and they continue to grow a bit slow, but those brands continue to grow. And so when you have those established brands, and you can piggyback off some of the newer ones, you know, a good example of that. Back in my first brokerage days, we started representing a brand called Hi To Moringa, which was a, I'm sure a lot of your listeners might be familiar with, but it's like a better Starburst, if you will. It was a Japanese brand, and it had just come to the US. And so you go into one of these firms or a customer, and you'd say, you know, here's your Tootsie Roll promotion for the quarter. Let's get you set up for the next six months. Oh, and by the way, we have this amazing new candy called Moringa, and that was just a really nice way to kind of present a brand and tell the story of what that brand is and how it could benefit their business. So yeah, that just kind of shows a lot of the different brands that I had, not only in candy, but also in better for you. And Greek yogurt, we represented Chobani, five hour energy. So it was kind of funny. We just had a really wide range of products, but they're all relevant. And that was a really, you know, important piece to our portfolio, is that our leadership team all had really great, relevant brands that we could present to major customers in the region. So that was my first kind of sneak peek, and my first introduction in the food industry. And I had, growing up, I had no clue that I would spend my whole career in food. I had no, no sense of that, but, but here I am, and I loved every second.

Sari  13:49  
Yeah, you love it. So interesting. There's actually how I built this. You know that podcast with Guy Roz on five hour energy. Have you listened to that one? Yeah, super interesting. Talk about just like perseverance and just not giving up. So that's really cool.

Dylan  14:11  
I've actually represented a number of brands that have been on How I Built This, and it's always fun when they come up, because I've met a lot of the owners of these companies, and you talk to them in person, and then you hear them on How I Built This, and they really are the same. They're not, it's not like, you know, they're true to themselves, and they're true to the brand through and through. And I think that's really cool. It's important for those brands that have been successful, that you know, have really stayed true to who they are. And you know, all things that did that they do, from messaging to marketing to, you know, their presence in the marketplace. So it's really fun to hear when that comes on. Most recently, there's one on new me tea, which was really quite fascinating, and just how they came to market and how they actually got their first chance by getting into a major grocery chain by attending a trade show and building this beautiful exhibit, and that was it. And it's just so fun to hear those different stories, and they really kind of resonate with me.

Sari  15:07  
Yeah, that's so fun. Like, oh, I know them. I know them. I love it. So how different does your strategy vary based on the sales channel? And just for anyone listening C store is convenience store, but maybe just kind of go through some of the channels, and then I'm curious, yeah, like, if you take any of those products, do you vary your strategy, or how many sales channels should you even be looking at, especially when you're just starting?

Dylan  15:36  
Yeah, that's a great question, Sari, and I guess just to start, go back a little bit, almost, is, you know, I've worked in, as you mentioned, so the the C store, Convenience Store channel, grocery channel, which are pretty similar. And then I also did some work in the food service channel for C store, which was pretty unique. And then also, more later in my career, I focused a lot on strictly food service, which I'd be happy to talk about more. That's my real passion. I love getting into the food service space. But you know, when it came to C store and grocery that was such a data driven sale, it was a very data driven as well as relationship driven, a lot of these old, and I don't want to say it's kind of the old passing of the guard, where a lot of these folks, we had a number of established relationships, and it was just almost, we'd always call it protect and conquer. You'd always protect the space that you had. So if you knew you had five items, let's say in a planogram, a P&G at a C store, you would make sure you offer all the relevant data. What that movement was, what that ACV was, how many ACV being, being how many units per store you're moving, and you're making sure that you present that data to your buyer for that product, and then also present new data to say, hey, this product might help move that product like a new one, or even tag team set up unique promotions. You know, we'd even do fun things like, buy one, get one free on two totally different brands. But what we could do as a broker is you could collaborate, you know, buy one advanced pier hot sandwich and get a free Chobani, or Chobani for half, all right?

Sari  17:18  
Oh, yeah, I've seen those before.

Dylan  17:21  
Yeah, you like, they have no business being together. But as a broker, I wouldn't say that was an actual notion I ran, but that's just the gist of it. Is you could be really creative in the sense of how you could grow your sales for not only existing products, but also get those emerging products, have them piggyback off those established brands and get them into the space. That C store and groceries similar as well. And I had the privilege of working with jungle gyms. If any listeners have heard of jungle gyms, it's kind of a, it's almost a, what you call that, like a destination. It's a massive, massive grocery store down in Cincinnati, Ohio, and they wouldn't have just like an authentic aisle that would have two rows of imported German food, that have three rows of imported Japanese food, and it was just, it was an old mall that they turned into a massive grocery store, and so that was selling international brands into that space. I've got some hilarious stories of taking products over there. I'll tell you about those another time. But, but yeah, so just you know, it really was a unique time, and selling into those grocery stores as well as C store, had some similarities, but also a little bit different, just as the data that you present to them and the type of promotions that you could run with those end users.

Sari  18:44  
Yeah, and we have a great there's a great podcast with Doug Helbig, who's the founder of Colorado Food Works, but we talk all a lot about data story, so I'll put that link for that podcast in the show notes. But so important that you're going in to a store, and even if you've never even gotten into one store, that you're bringing data from, maybe from your farmers market, or something that says, this is, this is why you want to keep this product on the shelf. And then once you start building data, I mean, you know, I was talking to a client yesterday, and it's like, we want to be partners in that, in that relationship, and keep moving that product. Like, how can we support our stores? Because if you don't move, you're going to get last chance, discontinued, pulled off the shelf. So super important that you're being a great partner, and certainly brokers can help a lot with that as well. 

Dylan  19:44  
Definitely. And I'm glad you brought that up, because it is so important that once you get a product and that you establish that that ground space, and it's, again, it's kind of like that, protect and conquer like, protect that space and do what you can, whether that's running a promotion, whether that's going into the store and doing a sampling, whether that's just, you know, telling all your friends and family to go and buy some of the product. It's important to make sure that the buyer that's sitting at the other end of the desk, when he just runs through his numbers and says, oh, look, this is a product that's moving and I need to continue to purchase more where, if you get it in and just stop a lot of times, if you don't have the right messaging or the right proactive steps to continue its movement, it'll just sit there, not saying that your product's a bad product, but it's a crowded place. It's a crowded market space, and you know, it's really important to stay on top of that and be proactive and making sure that that product's moving at a consistent, consistent rate.

Sari  20:41  
Yeah, absolutely. We talked about some other things, especially when you're small, you know, you just, I said those first couple stores, you just want to baby the heck out of them, like, do everything you can in your power. Stop by the store, go face the product, make it look great. Offer shelf talkers, of course, promotions, you know, use your social media, like tell friends and family like you really want to show. Oh, employee swag was another one, right? Don't be afraid to give out our promotion like stickers and hats and samples. And be really generous, because if you get those employees on your side, I mean, back in my days of Whole Foods, right?

Dylan  21:23  
Definitely, especially like an independent, small store, I used to go and do that. And, you know, I'd be in rural Ohio at a convenience store, and I'd buy all the workers, whatever item I was selling, and just give it to them and have them try it and ask what they think, and if they liked it, I'd like, alright, here's No, I'll buy them another bag and and then they'd sit there and be eating it, and customers would come by and be like, oh, I want that as well. And so it just kind of, it's almost that word of mouth, you know, you kind of get that ball rolling, and get that general interest there, and people just start to take on to that. It's so, so important. You can't underestimate that power,

Sari  21:56  
And I want to get into the questions, because you have some great questions too. But tell me about food service a little bit, because I've been working with I have some clients that it really does make sense. Their product makes sense to do, either bulk or I have a gal doing pastries, you know, that would be amazing in coffee shops and things like that. And, you know, I did work in restaurants for a long time as well, so I kind of understand that arena, but I was never doing the buying. So I'm curious, like, like, when you're dealing with chefs or owners, how different is it than, you know, kind of retail, where it's very like, category reviews and kind of very structured?

Sari  22:45  
Is your delicious dream knocking at the door? Well, maybe it's time to answer that call and the best way that you can get the information that you need to know to design your personalized roadmap to launch or grow your packaged food business is to come to the live sales channel challenge. This is the most value packed training we offer at Food Business Success, and you get all the knowledge that I have with my years of experience of helping hundreds of people start, grow, and scale their delicious product based business. The live version only happens twice a year, and this one is coming up on April 21 through the 23rd. You don't want to miss this, because for a $27 investment and three hours of your time, you are going to walk away with the knowledge of what it takes to be successful, whether you want to sell to farmers markets, online, or into stores as a wholesaler, this information is so critical for you deciding on whether if now is the time to launch or grow your business. Don't put this off. Go to foodbizsuccess.com/challenge, and if you are one of the first 20 people to get registered, you are entered to win a VIP strategy session with me. Answer that call, the knock of your dream that's saying now, maybe now is the time, and I will see you there.

Dylan  24:33  
Yeah, it's not an easy question to answer. We can go through that, no doubt, so. You know, I think one of the best ways to start would be even just scaling the product or scaling the business from, you can even look at it from. A grocery or C store realm first. So think of like going into you've got an initial few customers, and maybe you're just shipping it to them on FedEx or UPS, or you're doing a DSD model, where you're actually going into the store and delivering it yourself, and you're going through that process. And the way to really scale that up is to get with a chain. And once you're in a chain, then it gives it opens the door for distribution route. So it opens that door for, you know, some small grocery distributor to put you in their warehouse, and then wholesale, they can get it to more customers. So the same thing kind of goes for food service. It's very challenging just to go to one restaurant and say, hey, I've got this item. I want you to put it on your menu, and we'll work together on usage, and we'll figure out what makes sense best for you and how to get that product to you. As you scale up and you get into that food service realm, not saying that you have to start in grocery or retail. You can definitely start in food service, but it's very important to get with multiple operators, multiple multi unit operators to start really help ramp that up, because you're going to get spread too thin, and there's, there's so many variables, especially now with the restaurants kind of in flux, that it's very hard to manage and predict what the usage rate is going to be for a product in a food service channel. And additionally, it's not a very structured sales cycle. It's not like, oh, you know, we're going to go through a menu change. You see some restaurants that have had the same menu for 20 years, or you see some that have maybe one LTO limited time offering. So it's very important to get with chefs, executive chefs, and tell them about your story and show a product that really fits their messaging, and make sure it fits what you're trying to how do I put this what you're trying to sell? So, you know, if you're trying to sell a better for you product into a McDonald's, it just by obviously, doesn't make sense. But if, if you're really focused on a better for you product, and you find that perfect brand that you know is there's just a really good marriage of the product and what their offerings are, really it takes a lot of time to nurture that process and get them samples and prove to them that this is why they should have it. This is how it's going to be more cost effective for you to put this on your menu, because it's not a lot of the times you don't even know what that brand is. So for instance, when I was in the food service channel, I represented a lot of brands that were in the better for you space and grocery but had gone on to move to food service. So just name a couple few, or a few brands would be like Bob's Red Mill. Everybody knows what Bob's Red Mill is, but they have a massive food service offering, but most restaurants don't call out, this is Bob's oatmeal or whatever. So, you know, it's really important to understand, if you want to have that brand image, you're not always going to get in that food service base. You're, you might, you might get a menu mentioned, but that's on really rare occasions, impossible. Was on the first plant based food brands I represented, and that was so easy to get a menu mentioned, that kind of changed the landscape and you mentioned, but it's just very different from the grocery, where it's very brand facing, for food service, it's not.

Sari  28:28  
Yeah, I like to make out the pastries. Was like, you know, should I require that they say that they're, you know, my pastries? And I was like, you can't, you can't do that. You can show them the value of, like, being local, and that they're supporting local. And, you know, like, try to show them the value and give them some signage, but they don't have, like, no, they don't. They're not required.

Dylan  28:52  
Yeah, it's, it's tough. And you know, sometimes you can pay for that menu mentioned, but you know, what's your ROI and actually paying for that menu mentioned? But as I mentioned before, it's so important to focus on specific food service customers that really resonate with your brand. So if it is a company or it is a restaurant, that's saying we only source product from 200 mile or 200 mile radius from, let's just say Denver, then all by all means you should be targeting that customer. That's somebody that you 100% should be in front of. But again, it's not. It doesn't make sense for all brands to be doing that. But again, just making sure that you know your messages really resonate with that end user.

Sari  29:32  
Yeah, that's great and, and I'm kind of going out of order here, but since we were kind of talking about distribution and why, now let's, let's just talk a little bit more about, like, what is that growth plan as you're trying to scale and get into distribution? So maybe you can talk a little bit more about that, or your your best channel as you're starting out.

Dylan  29:52  
Yeah, one of the things I tell and I just to kind of again, go back to the start here. I love talking to brands. Whatever the food brand is, and I should, I should probably be. I'm very open. I come from, moved here, from Columbus, Ohio, and they always called it the backyard effect, where people would just be totally open to talk about business and give your best ideas and just collaborate. And so I've always been about that, and always try to find ways to connect folks with other folks who might have a similar interest, or, you know, anything along those lines, just to help out in any way. So I love talking to brands. One of the first things I tell brands that I talk to is make sure that you're scaling at a reasonable rate, and make sure that you can produce the amount of product that you need to scale at that rate. One of the biggest challenges I've had in my career is when you're actively selling your product and then all of a sudden, you're out of stock. I won't mention the brand, but I had a meeting here in Denver, and it was the fastest meeting I've ever had in my life. I had a client fly in from an out of state, and we sat down, and the buyer said, when can I get this product? And we kind of fumbled with the answer, and she said, okay, thank you. And that was the end of the meeting. She didn't ask another question. She stood up and walked out the door. But what happens is, whether in retail or food service or on wholesale, you're owning a slot, you're owning a piece of real estate on that shelf, in that kitchen, on that or in that warehouse, and if you run out of product and it's sitting there, that means there's multiple levels of customers who are losing money on that opportunity or on that space. So when you're scaling up your business, you have to be extremely thoughtful as to which customers you're bringing on. And again, this kind of goes back to why data is so important, making sure that you're understanding, if I'm gaining 10 stores, if I'm getting 10 restaurants, what is that going to do to my value? What do I need to do to make sure I'm scaling up? Because it's twofold. You don't want to upset your current customers, and you definitely don't want to upset your new customers, because both times, they're either going to say thanks, but no thanks, you've had your shot, you're out, or we're just going to move on. We found a different supplier. So it's so important to scale and make sure you have all your ducks in a row before you grow too big. And I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs don't always think about. They kind of think about that end game like we need to get in more stores. We need to sell more units. But if you do that too quickly, and you don't have the backbone and the structure for it, it's going to come to hurt you much more in the long term than it would just to do it in a more organic growth. 

Sari  
Yeah, I always think back when I was working with Whole Foods, and we would, I worked for the regional office, and we would, my job was to find local producers for new stores, and as we moved into new areas, and then, but sometimes like that, would actually put people out of business. They were so excited to get on the stores, but then they had no growth plan, and it's such a tricky thing. It's like, well, I can't just, like, pull the trigger on making all this product or moving to a co packer until I have the sales, but you have to. It's like, you almost have to have the plan. Like, ready to go, ready, ready to execute. Like, if you wait until you get the stores and then you're like, well, let me figure out now how I'm going to scale. It's too late, like you said, you've lost your shot, so you really have to have that plan, even if it's like, I'm not ready to go into a co packer yet, but I can turn it on like it's ready to go. I'm not like, oh, who should my co packer be?

Dylan  
And it's also important to know, and Doug has always been good to say this, but it's always good to know when to say no. And you know, I think as a brand, it would be extremely difficult if Rocky Mountain Whole Foods was like, all right, we're ready. You guys can come into all 30 of our stores, however many it is, and you know that you might be cutting it close, or that you're maybe 70% of the way there. And it's so hard as a business owner to sit there and say, you know what? I don't think this makes sense right now. I don't know if this is right for us to do this at this exact moment, but it's very important to do that if you know that it's not going to work out to Whole Foods best interest right away. If you can delay that, or if you can just say, maybe, you know, maybe in six months, I need to build up my inventory, come up with an alternative plan to make sure. And again, it's that trust and collaboration to say, look like we very much appreciate you accepting us into this slot, but I don't want to do you wrong and not give you what you need. So again, you got to be honest, and you got to stay true to your brand and yourself and what you're trying to sell, because it's going to do worse for you if you crash and burn and something like that, as opposed to saying no and really kind of waiting to make sure it's the right time.

Sari  
Oh my gosh. I love that. I know we had a such a great clubhouse conversation. I wish we could record those, because such a good one with you me Doug and Brandon. And Brandon brought up that yes and or yes but right like, I want to say yes, but I also know I can't deliver yet. So yes, and here's the plan, can we delay this by six months or whatever? Because you are, I think people just see it like, sometimes these sales is like, oh, I'm Whole Foods. It's like, great. That's it. It's a one time thing. And it's like, no, you're building a long term partnership. And part of that is that you are building trust, like you said, and that might mean that you have to have a hard conversation and say, I'm not quite ready. And I know nobody wants to do that, but that is where I saw people have to close their doors. Because not only do you have to, you have to get all the product upfront, right? And your your cash flow cycle is super long when you every time you scale up. So I always say you got to have a plan, a capital plan, well in advance when you're starting to do that. And when I help people get into Whole Foods, I'm working with a client now, and they're willing to, they're reviewing us off cycle, because they're really interested in the product. But I gave her a breakdown of, like, this is how much it's going to cost to get into Whole Foods. Like, there's IX one, and there's free fills, and there's promotions and XYZ. Like, are you ready for that? Do you have the capital?

Dylan  
That's a great point, is, as an emerging brand or a startup company, how do you know what's best for you? How do you know if Whole Foods is your best route? What if it's ecommerce? And I don't know a ton on ecommerce, but what if it's ecommerce? What if it's C store? And I think that's, again, when you're coming up as a company, it's so important to understand your demographic and to understand who you're really trying to reach. And, you know, Whole Foods is, you know, especially in this better for you world that we're living in, especially here in Denver, and you know, that's such a focus. But not all brands are like that. You know, there's so many brands out there. There's so many different other stores, yeah, channels and organizations. And, you know, finding out which one is best for you might not be as easy as you think. And I think some people just kind of start this career, or this this journey, and they just think that they do what everybody else does, but there's so many different options. Probably not the best one to touch on all those other options, but just know that there are other ones out there, and that there's, there's more opportunities than just the typical route that you see a lot of big brands going through.

Sari  
So I think, isn't it five hour energy that he like, tried to get it, you know, shopped it around. I think he went to a trade show, and then he finally was a GNC, or maybe it was C store that they built a display, and it was like, you know, that's where it took off. But it took a lot of trial and error and trying out those different channels. 

Dylan  
I think he started, it wasn't even, it wasn't even a five. It wasn't five hour energy brand. It was vitamin shop along those lines, something totally different, and the product didn't change, but the branding and the messaging and the go to market strategy did, but he spent a number of years trying to get into the vitamin that Vita shop wholesale type of space, and finally, once he changed and realized that the five hour energy was where the consumers were really interested in the energy piece of it, he made that switch, and as soon as he changed it from, I don't know exactly what it was, let's just say vitamin to energy, it just took off. And he recognized that  the C store space was exactly his demographic that he was looking for, where previously, he was looking more towards health nuts. Well now he was looking towards people who are on the road all the time, people who were, if you're blue collar worker. And it just took off. And that brand was astonishing. I mean, when you looked at it from a square foot per revenue, revenue per square foot, it was the most in a gas station, even more so than gas. Gas stations made a ton of money because they just put a tiny little display right next to the register, and it'll just sell like hot cakes. You just go right off the shelf, and it's just an incredible that's an incredible story of a brand that pivoted, recognized what their target was, and made that switch and capitalized on it.

Sari  
Yeah, so how do you I mean, we kind of said it's really challenging to choose your sales channel. Do you recommend? Like, let's just take you're really small, you've maybe been at a farmer's market, or you're just starting out like, is it okay to kind of throw spaghetti at the wall a little bit? And then when do you choose? Or do you have any advice for that?

Dylan  
I think when you know every owner is going to be different, and they're going to know deep down what their guts telling them, I think this is going to work here. I think this is going to work. Maybe over here, maybe I'll try these three spaces. I don't know. I haven't worked with a brand that's literally just taking off going into, you know, from a farmer's market to a grocery store, so to speak. So I don't really know what that looks like, but one of the things that I would say is, and this is one of my questions I kind of wrote down earlier. But how do you get that creativity? How do you get that sales creativity to sell a product and really understand what your consumer is thinking of it, what the review of the product is, how you're how you're having a you're building that relationship almost with your consumer to see what they're finding about the product. Why do they like it? Where would they buy it? And you're going to have those few champions at the beginning, people who just absolutely love what you're doing. And work with them. They're going to be open and honest with you. They've got nothing to gain or lose. Essentially, maybe offer them a free case of product, whatever it is, but have their insights and have them help you guide where you think it should go. And I think that would be a really good place to start. They're the ones that are buying. They're the consumer. And, you know, they see products all the time. They go to Whole Foods, they go to see stores, they go, you know, online. But for whatever reason, there's people who are very interested in what you have to sell. Ask them why. And and have them help guide you, and they'll give you honest feedback. And I think that would be a really good place to start, and kind of take that and learn from them, right?

Sari  
Yeah, that's great. And I guess I, you know, I would recommend it's okay to try some different things, but recognize every sales channel you go down is a potentially a different kind of investment. I mean, certainly an investment of time, everyone you choose. And then it can be a little different investment in money, right displays, or just how you structure, you know, maybe it comes in different packaging for food service versus consumer facing. So recognize that they're all going to potentially take different resources. So I definitely recommend, like, it's okay to try some but then going deep and constraining and not trying to do them all at once. Because I'm sure you know a lot of yours, like, it sounds like they were started, and some of them started grocery and then they wanted to add C store. To add food service?

Dylan  
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because you definitely don't want to get pulled in too many different directions. And again, I think that might be a place where you might run into some challenges. So again, getting with your consumers, figuring out where they think it will be best, where they think that they would be most in tune, and most you know, probable to buy, excuse me, to buy that product. I think makes a lot of sense, but you don't want to, you don't want to just throw it at every single channel at once, because then you're just going to get spread too thin and nothing's really going to stick. So maybe pick one, maybe two. Go deep into both of those. And then, you know, as time goes by, if you're not satisfied, or you think it can be better, pause and figure out what your next step should be. But don't just hear something online and oh, I think I should go into e commerce. I'm going to start to do that right now, because it's just you don't have a plan. Make sure you're structured, and you have that plan and that vision to really capitalize on it, and do it in the best way possible.

Sari  
Yeah, the one I've had clients, not even mine, but a few of them have considered it, but is going on, like Home Shopping Network or QVC, like a shiny object that they, you know, they present, and it's like, going to be all these great things. And I've watched other brands do it, and they they like, put all their other stuff on pause, they ramp up. And then it hasn't always been as successful, as promised. So that's like, like, yeah, I would say don't get distracted by shiny objects. Like, I would say to max and like, go deep. And then when you get really good at it, then add another one or evaluate. But give it some time. You got to give it some time , for sure.

Dylan  
And do it well. Give it all your effort into each of those, whatever channel it's going to be, give it time. You know, it's not, it's not always a sprint. It's a marathon. Sometimes you got to, you got to give it time. You got to nurture it and grow it and grow it organically. And you got to, as we said earlier, you got to promote it. You got to go into the store. You got to make sure that you're giving all that each package needs to have its own time and effort dedicated to it. And if you are in a grocery store, and then you're doing stuff on TV, and all of a sudden you're not focused on one thing or the other, it's just going to get lost in the shuffle. So you're totally right. Focus on one thing and do it really, really well, and then focus on something else. If it's not making sense right there.

Sari  
Right, be willing to reevaluate. But I just people are like, I don't know, I don't know what decision to make. And I'm like, make a decision, take action. Just don't change course until you've taken enough action that you actually like when you get feedback, like, okay, maybe this, you know, but that's how we pivot, right? But has to be a decision, and then there has to be action.

Dylan  
Yeah, it's funny. It's a tough, I mean, it's a tough task, deciding which channel to go into. And a good example of this is impossible and beyond. And these are the two names in plant based foods, and one beyond, decided to go into the plant, into the grocery channel first, and impossible to say, to go in the food service first. And they're both extremely successful companies, and they're both extremely good products, but they just decided on a different channel. And obviously that was a space that was pretty low in competition, and they did very well on each of those channels. But it could have been reversed, you know, one of them could have done one of, you know, part retail and part food service. They've, they've now since done that, but let's say beyond was like, you know, we're going to go into food service and retail the start, and then they want to be the company that they are today. It's so it's very important to focus on and learn from brands, you know, see what a brand has done, and just recognize when, you know, maybe, maybe there's a piece of that story that makes sense for you, and you're going to kind of piggyback off that and go down that route, but you're right, just, you know, focus on one thing and try to, try to, you know, do it  it's great.

Sari  
Yeah, yeah. Either, just keep, keep pedaling. You know, took this bike ride. I rented a bike lot this weekend, and it was the crappiest bike. And I was like, I know where I am, and I know where I need to go. If I just keep pedaling, I don't stop I will get there. I looked ridiculous.

Dylan  
Out of breath. You're going to be sweating, but you know, like, you don't have an option at that point. Like, yeah, what am I gonna turn down? Turn around now, like, I'm already 95% of the way there. Make sure it's right.

Sari  
Tell me a little bit about telling your story and how important that is, as you're going into say, I mean, it's odd, like, I'm sure people are like, when you have very beginning, you're like, I wanted to go into sales. And I know people were just like, oh, like, I have people literally, like, viscerally get, you know, nauseous or think about sales and I'd love to just hear you know how important, or how you've done such a great job and kind of rock that sales territory, and how telling your story fits into that.

Dylan  
Yeah, it's, you know, every brand is built with love and passion, and there's a product that's, that's the, what would you call that, the fruit of that work. And some people just forget that, and they forget that their story is unique to everybody else's, unless it's, you know, Con Agra, who just came up with a new brand doing this, whatever. But as a small company, you've got a story to tell. And you know, there's sales people walking into restaurants, there's sales people walking into grocery stores, and the buyers, and they're all trying to sell a product, but the thing that sticks is a story, and it can be a simple story of how you started, or why you started the brand, or why you picked this flavor, or anything that makes your brand stand out or different than nother one. And I think that's such an undervalued process, piece of the process of selling a product into an end user. So you know that story is so important, and it's really important to not only make sure you have it down internally, but also when you continue to scale, to make sure other people know what that story is, whether it's on the packaging, whether it's on the sales people that you that you hire, or the brokers that you hire, but if that story is consistent, and it moves through the process of a sale, then it really resonates down to the consumer. And I really take note in that. And I feel like those stories just seem to me, you know, you're not selling a product, you're selling a person, you're selling a family, whatever it is, and some companies just don't have that. And it's, it's so cool being a small company where you can. So don't forget that, and don't lose that sight and present it every chance you get. And sometimes you hear people say the same story over and over and over again, but, you know, they're talking to different people, so, you know, it's just so important to keep that top of mind and sell that story and just present it in a way that makes sense. And sometimes you'll sit down and a buyer is going to be, you know, part of your story might be, oh, we're a B Corp. Okay, great. This buyer is like, oh, I love B Corps. I've worked with 10 of them before. Or this other person is like, well, I don't care about a B Corp. I don't know what it is. Tailor that story when you're sitting down with it, you know you're building that trust in that relationship. So tailor it to them. And you know what, you know all the facets of what you're going to tell but just make sure it's tailored specifically to each customer, whether it's sustainability or it's gluten free, there's always a message that's going to resonate with somebody. Make sure your story's broad but specific in a sense, that here's why you should be buying it, because of XYZ, and just plug and play and figure out what that buyer wants to hear and really harp in on that. 

Sari  
In business success, I call, I have a whole module on defensively unique. So it's every it's, you know, it might be you as a brand owner, your your story, right? Like, you know, I think of, like Jackson's honest came to mind when I, when I was thinking about that. But like, their family story, right? Or it could be the the seasonality or the variety, or where this comes from, or your connections, your influence, the sustainability aspect, the packaging, like come up with, you know, a number of those that you can speak to, and then you can kind of tailor them based on, based on the buyer, for sure, but, yeah, that's what sticks in people's minds, right? Is, like, it's not just, I'm sure I was thinking of Chobani too. I mean, I can't imagine when they were just starting right, like, or going into sea service, or sea seafood that they, you know, you had to come up with, like, tell a story, like, why would a C store want yogurt? Buy this yogurt?

Dylan  
Right exactly. And again, that's such a that's a really good point, because if you have a very unique product, an emerging space, you might not have the data, you might not have that story to tell specifically on how well it's selling just yet, but you need to be able to tell that story of here's why you should give it a try. And Chobani is a good, great example of that, because what you know who's buying, who's buying Greek yogurt at a C store, but we had done a lot of research and figured out. That there's this shift from demographics going into not all C stores, but maybe your AC stores, you know, your young professionals who are just looking for a quick bite, you know, traditionally, they'll just look, you know, I'll take banana whatever sitting there. Oh, there's a Chobani here. Maybe I'll grab that. So it's, it's, it's finding that story of, here's how the landscape shifting, and here's how my brand is going to fit into that shifting landscape. 

Sari  
Yeah, that's so good. Anything else on story or to me, or your sales, I know people get a little I don't want to be salesy. And I actually throw out this quote. I'd love to hear your feedback on but or not, a quote, but like an equation that I heard right, where sales equals connection plus certainty. So how does that, how would you kind of interpret that in?

Dylan  
I love that quote with that equation, I should say. So for me, you know, the certainty piece goes back to that scale, you know, or that, that ability to make sure that we can get you the product when we promise we can get it to you, you know, that's so important. And then the other piece is the connectivity. And it's really funny when I tell people I'm in sales, they're like, ah, my gosh, must be so hard. Or, you know, I'm just not salesy enough. But most of my friends and family, if you ask them, they're like, you're not salesy at all. But you know, all that I do is that I listen, and all I sit across the desk from somebody, I ask some questions, and I listen, and I listen to what they're telling me and what they're saying and what they're looking for, and just really be patient and you connect with them in that sense. Because if you're sitting there just trying to sell what you have, it might not make sense for them. You know that it makes sense for them, but you have to let them know that it makes sense for them. So you have to sit and connect with them, build that relationship. And again, it's that connection piece, like I said earlier, you know, maybe it doesn't make sense for us to connect right now. Maybe we should wait, but let's just start that relationship. Let's build off of this and organically grow together when it makes sense. But that connectivity piece is so important where, you know, you don't need to be pushing a product down somebody's throat, you know, it doesn't work. I know of one brand that it worked, and it was a beef jerky brand. They came into a meeting, threw a bag of beef jerky at the buyer, and said, you need to put this on your shelf. And they should. They were even late to the meeting. And he looked at him, was like, excuse me, and they just berated him. And he's like, all right, whatever. I'll put it on. And it did very well. So that was like a one off story. But you know, the longevity of building that relationship and making sure that product is successful is you don't want to just throw something out there at a buyer or consumer and just hope that it works, but just connect with them, tell them, show them why it works for you and here's what I'll do to help you get that and make sure it's reliable. So that definitely equals success.

Sari  
Yeah, yeah. And that certainty can come in the form of trust. It can come in the form of, you know, I'm going to guarantee sales, or I'm going to, here's what we're doing to make sure we meet the demand, or all the things that we've talked about, right? But that is how you can convey certainty, because a buyer is taking a risk, and that's what I always tell people is, they have a limited, it's real estate. They have a limited amount of real estate. And if they, they don't just have, like, empty shelves. Whenever you ever walked in and there's just, like an empty slot in the granola aisle, right? It's like, no, they have to consider, okay, does it make sense to bring in this new brand that I don't know? I don't know anything about them. They don't have this track record, or I have an existing one that's doing okay, you know? And so they have to weigh that out. And the more you can transfer certainty and build up relationship and trust, it's going to really serve you. 

Dylan  
And to kind of put those two together is you can kind of put those into the same equation in the sense of, if you build that relationship on the sense of connectivity, and then also grow a plan into that to say, here's how I'm going to help this be successful. Here's how I'm going to make it succeed. You've got a backup plan. So now you've got you built trust, as well as a plan to prove that your product is going to work and be transparent and honest. You know, maybe set benchmarks, maybe set a meeting in three weeks or three months, and just say, look, let's sit down and talk about this. I know your time is busy. You're, you know, you've got a lot going on, but you have a lot of granolas, let's just say a lot of granolas to choose from. Here's why it should be mine, and here's how I'm going to sit down and be a face for you and connect with you and show that this isn't just a granola. This is Dylan's granola. And here's how I'm going to really help you show that and build that plan to kind of back one as well. 

Sari  
Yeah, that's great. Well, I'd love to wrap up with we didn't talk about this, but a conversation about community. And we'll do a little plug for Colorado Food Works if you're in the Denver or even Colorado area, but wherever you are, whether and I mean, I have a community group inside Food Business Success, and there's lots of other community groups around CPG in different states around the country, so I just love to kind of hear your take on why we talked a little bit about this at our board meeting. But how has community and networking with other brands do you feel like it has contributed to your success, and do you see it helping others? 

Dylan  
A hundred percent. One of the reasons why I stayed in the food industry, I actually left for a little while, but came back, was because I love the relationships in this food community. I would go to trade shows, and I was young, and would just meet these people, and they'd be genuinely interested in you, and they just want to collaborate and talk and chat, what's working for you, what's not working for you. How can I help you? And that space isn't the same in other industries, and that's what makes the food industry so unique and so special is that, you know, we're just trying to do good for especially in the better for you world. And this, this healthy space. We're just trying better for everybody. And you know your success is our success. And so the community can be as big or as small as you want it to be. And you know, Colorado Food Works is a great platform for that locally. But you know, anywhere in the country, you can find that community, whether it's going to the farmers market or if it's going to, you know, just going to talk, you're talking to a local restaurant tour. You know, it's such a close knit community. And food foods about passion and love. It's not about, it's not always about the bottom line. You know, obviously it is to some degree. But you know, people are passionate about this space and that community, that sense of shared success really starts with the community and it grows with everybody. And going to trade shows is a great way to meet and expand your community. You know, you can talk to anybody in the space, and, you know, they'll be happy just to, you know, give you their opinion or their thoughts. I would recommend that to anybody, if you've got a brand, even if it's going to talk to the competitor or somebody who's been in this space for, you know, 15 years. They're the established brand. Go and talk to them. You know, they're going to know that, you know you're not going to take their space so to speak for a little while, or they're just going to want to, you know, collaborate with you and chat. So that that's the sole reason why I love the food industry and just the community that you can build, and the folks that I've met, I've got lifelong friends here in this community, just from meeting at trade shows or meeting some of my, you know, clients and their friends that they know, it's just a it's a very close knit, close knit crew.

Sari  
Yeah, I have found the CPG world to be very generous, to be very giving, yeah, very giving other time and then, you know, knowing that people have helped them and they want to pay it forward, and that's part of it. Like you go in like, okay, I need help, but I also want to be open and available to help others as I keep going in my journey. And I've definitely seen a lot more. I mean, I could, well, a lot of you guys are on the board, the people who value community, and then we have those, those meetings, you know, we got together in person and you were able to be like, I mean, we all, we all were having conversation about, like, oh, what do you do in this case? And what about this broker? And who do you recommend here? And, oh, you have a connection at Whole Foods or, you know, I mean, it was just amazing to see that and so fun. And I just think, like, what an easy thing to do, to actually get involved in community. It's like, other than your time, it really doesn't cost that much. $25 a year. Like, yeah, well worth it, and I do see a lot of people not take advantage of it, though. I mean, whether it's our group or other people's Slack groups or in person, or whatever, it just seems like such a no brainer,

Dylan  
Yeah, and I don't know, I don't know if it's people feeling that they need to protect themselves a little bit, or, you know, they just might not feel comfortable sharing where they're at where again, the food industry, we've all had our problems, like we all have our issues, and it's a 99% chance that somebody's going through the exact same thing. We had the same like you said at our board meeting last week, we had the same conversation. Oh, you're going through this? So am I. I never would have guessed you were having that same problem. But it's just being open and sharing that, and building that space where you can do it. And I think that's so important. And, you know, a good way to kind of show just how inclusive this space is. If you look at investment dollars, in the past two, three years, there's been so much money going into the food space, and a lot of the investors that I've spoken to, they say that they want to work with food people because they're so nice and because that they're very open and willing to talk about their business. So it's not just the people who are in the industry. There's a lot of people on the outside looking in, saying, Man, I wish I would have done that. Or, you know, I wish I would be in that space, because it just seems like a such an enjoyable place to be in.