Full Transcript

 

[Lauren]

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to be joined today by Lauren Rock teacher. She is amazing when it comes to wanting to understand what regulatory requirements you need for your packaging, how to look at it, how to understand beyond your packaging, all of that.

So I'm so excited to have you here, Lauren. I have learned so much from you since meeting you, and I'm so excited to have you here. And I just love the work that you do.

You know, our founders are generally early stage and they're really just starting out. And I'm curious if you have any initial advice for early stage founders when they're first getting started and how to ensure they can go to market legally and not have the expense of having to redo all their packaging.

 

[Stephanie]

Whoa, what a loaded question. All right. Well, hi, everyone.

I'm so excited to be here. Um, I, oh gosh, diving right in. My advice for people who are at the founder stage is to ask the questions, to find the answers and not be afraid of what they are because sometimes I can paralyze you when you're, you know, you have that executive dysfunction, get to the bottom of things and move on.

Things will happen, no matter what when you're building a food company and you need to learn how to manage them. And one of the best ways to manage some of the very large awful things that could happen later on like recalls or, you know, even just a buyer rejecting you because, you know, you don't have the right label is to get a label review from either myself, obviously, I would like that, but a lawyer could look at your label or a consultant like myself could look at your label and really hone in on the compliance aspect to make sure that you can make it onto the shelves to make sure that you don't have to recall your labels to make sure you're not missing little typos to make sure that you are thinking through all of the things you need to think through when it comes to being on the shelf and having an actual package out in the market.

 

[Lauren]

I love that advice. I was just talking to a founder the other day who had a typo on their packaging. And I have I built a process where I always ensure that two other sets of eyeballs look at every single piece of a label and sign off on it because when you're that close to the design, you often make mistakes.

You miss.

 

[Stephanie]

Absolutely. You read what you want to see. And you know what, like a typo is the best thing that could happen.

You can use that on social media. You can make a joke out of it. Use it.

Promote your product with it. That's one of those things that it's like, okay, you get that gut feeling, but then go with it. At least that's not something that would cause you to trash 100,000 labels that you just got printed.

You know, it gets expensive when we when we find mistakes, but don't don't let something little like that ruin a really good thing.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, and it and it happens. Okay, so I So I jumped in with the big question because I feel like that's the burning question. But what I also really want to know is how did you get started?

How did you get into regulatory and and and and and and what else do you because I know you do more than just that review process too.

 

[Stephanie]

Yes, absolutely. So I started 17 years ago, hand delivering labels to the USDA. That was my introduction to food science.

Actually, I was in my undergrad and I wanted I had just actually transferred from dietetics to food science. And I was like, am I making a mistake? I'm just going to go ask my advisor if I can get an internship right now.

So I went and got this internship and labeling and I was like, you know, not what I expected, but really fascinating. And I just dove into information and who who knew that, you know, sausages have their own standard of identity. You know, all of the naming is just so interesting the placement.

I just found that so cool. So I went on. I had that internship.

I also had internships in research and development. I also worked in quality control. My passions are research and development and regulatory.

I'm not a quality gal. However, I speak the language. And so, you know, being in the industry for this long, I have worked for very, very large global companies and in regulation.

I have worked for very small co manufacturers that were growing, you know, from one small kettle to 10 while I was there. I've worked with. I've worked with lots of different types of companies, ice cream, icing, edible cookie dough, barbecue sauces, marinara sauces, dietary supplements.

Lots. The list goes on. So I have been in in the industry, but then I've also owned my own brand.

And that is kind of a whole other story. But while I own my own brand, I saw so many founders who just didn't realize how much goes into compliance. And so I shifted my focus and I am now here because I've been in in your shoes.

I have had that walk and I have felt those feelings and grown a company. And so I truly I like to work with founders. There are a lot of companies, a lot of consultants who won't because I know that you have a budget.

 

[Lauren]

Right.

 

[Stephanie]

And I am not the cheapest. I can't say that I'm the cheapest person to use, but I'm probably the cheapest that knows what they're doing.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, I was going to say cost every every founder in that emerging stage. Obviously, it's cost concerned. But ensuring you find for your regulatory and packaging review, ensuring you find the right person who can really do it at it.

Like if as long as there's a level of competitiveness, if you're going too cheap, you're going to have I think you're going to have problems. You're not going to have someone with your level of experience. And I mean, 17 years in that.

The other thing I love is because so many of the founders we work with are so early stage that you've walked that path. So you know, the mindset and what's going on in the minds of these founders, the concern, hopefully not the fear, but we know there's fear that, you know, that the confusion, the confusion.

 

[Stephanie]

I mean, coming from I just got off a call with someone who is coming from the tech industry talk about it would be way over my head to talk to them about their industry.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah.

 

[Stephanie]

And so I cannot imagine walking into the food world and being like, wait, what you have to test? OK, you get to see away. OK, then, like, you have to prove this.

But if you're at this point, like, so wait, what is it? Wait a second. You have to do a quality control check here.

And what's half up? And why are we doing, you know, a test recall?

 

[Lauren]

I don't have to plan for that.

 

[Stephanie]

You know, it's like, no, I cook my food. I know it's good. Why can't I sell it?

And, you know, we just have to be super safe and make sure, you know, you can get on the shelves truly just to sell to sell your product. We want it out there. And sometimes you just have to get through that red tape and understand the rules.

But, yeah, I have been there. I love talking to early stage founders about everything that they could be going through, from what websites they're trying to design on to, you know, their social media to co-manufacturing. And the things to think about when you're picking a partner in co-manufacturing, all of the different types of boxes you need.

And the structure of your palette, you know, cogs, all of those keywords floating around. If I can't help, I know someone who can. So it's, you know, I'm always just happy to connect with early stage founders, even if you've done the regulatory review, even if you're uninterested in my regulatory review.

I'd love to meet you.

 

[Lauren]

You know, I love that. I'm the same way. I just love talking to people in that stage.

I feel like there's so much potential and it's so exciting. And they've got this dream, which is why I do what we do at Food Business Success, right? Is literally all of those, I think of them as the acronyms, right?

All of those helping people with their cogs, building HACSA plans, you know, understanding, I'm just thinking of all the terms you threw out, C of A's. And if you don't know what those are, everyone, we can tell you, right? I mean, if you're sourcing things, your C of A is your certificate of analysis.

If you don't know what it is, you need someone like Lauren or any good R&D person. But Lauren, especially to make sure that certificate of analysis is getting you what you need and meeting what you need for your ingredients, your HACSA planning. That's, you know, your, I think of it as your disaster planning, but it's really, you're not having a disaster plan, right?

It's how to make sure...

 

[Stephanie]

Predicting where the hazards are.

 

[Lauren]

Exactly.

 

[Stephanie]

Exactly. And making a plan to monitor and validate those.

 

[Lauren]

So you don't have a recall. So you don't have, you know, and one of the things you said earlier that I loved is you said you also do actual R&D work. Is that something you do still or you've done?

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, I do. I take on special projects. So not many though.

I truly am focusing on building a proof and panel because I think that's where I can make the most impact. There are other R&D food scientists and I'd love to work hand in hand with one, but what I do and what I think I do best is that regulatory and mentorship kind of holding your hand through that label process. And all the while giving you some a little extra knowledge on our journey together.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, well, I'll tell you the R&D people at most of the brands I've been at were, because I've always worked at small brands that we didn't have an in-house regulatory person, they were our regulatory people because they know so much. That R&D background is huge. People who aren't as familiar may not understand, but having R&D understand regulatory is important because they have to build the product to meet the regulatory.

And so that background is really important.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's another benefit of my background in research and development is that sometimes you're working with an R&D scientist and they don't have to, how do I put this? They're very sciency and you don't understand what they're saying.

I can speak the language of a founder, I can speak the language of R&D, I can speak the language of regulatory. It is one of my strengths is being able to create this plain language. And it's not like dumbed down language, it's just rephrased to natural language and kind of be able to discuss these things with you in the open and explain why your protein went up.

When we added a seasoning that had milk protein in it, or it went down because we added a powder that didn't have any protein in it and you wanted more protein and you didn't know how to ask these questions to your R&D scientist.

 

[Lauren]

And you'd understand because I have to say I've been super impressed with your marketing. So you've put assets together for our launch and grow program that were just fantastic. And what I loved is to your point of not being overly sciency in your communication, even though being very specific in your review is like they're so easy to follow.

They're so easy for people to be able to look at and see. And so I'm thinking as a partner, you would so easily not only be able to say, well, here's why it went up when we added that protein, but here's what it means marketing wise. It's like, oh, yeah, here's what it means on shelf.

And that whole 360 view of the product, I think, is what makes your service and everything you bring to the table so exciting, especially for early stage people who just they can't just silo everything. It's everything's got to be integrated at that early stage.

 

[Stephanie]

Absolutely. Speaking of protein, I will just kind of throw this in there. If you're making any type of protein claim on your label, make sure you are also calculating your percent daily value of protein and putting that on your label.

That is a different calculation than your other daily value percentages. So just throwing that out there to you. Protein is so popular right now that I want to make sure you do it right.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, you know what? I really want to call out to everyone because protein is so powerful that if you didn't quite understand, rewind that section and hear what Lauren said because protein right now is crazy and everybody has it in there and how you claim and how you calculate. I mean, that can be the difference between getting on shelf.

That can be the difference between selling. That can be the difference between a regulatory person coming in and saying, you can't sell this anymore. Your packaging is you're not calculating this correctly.

You are not marketing.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, and even worse, watchdog groups, even worse, not even getting on the shelf because there is a baseline knowledge in the industry of what needs to be on your label, especially for purchasing and those purchasers of all those retail stores. They have a baseline knowledge. They know what needs to be on your label.

They may not know the sizing it needs to be. That's going to be the nitpickers, the auditors, those types of people. But getting on the shelves means you need to be compliant.

And that is one thing that you need to have upfront in order to even grow.

 

[Lauren]

And even if you're selling online and at farmer's markets, to your point, there's going to be social media people who are going to know what they see. There's going to be there's all kinds of watchdog organizations. So I don't want to scare people.

Fear is never something we use at Food Business Success. We are all about staying in the facts to not have the fear that a lot of founders have. So everyone listening, this is not about scaring you that, oh my gosh, there's so many things you can do wrong.

This is about having solutions available to you for all the things you can actually do right.

 

[Stephanie]

Oh yes, sorry, we can make it right. You can get the information and the confidence. Don't worry.

Yeah, yes, no, the sad reality is that there are people looking. But let's get your labels right. And let's make you informed.

That's one of the things that I also like to do is I don't just tell you what's wrong. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you why I'm telling you this.

So what is the regulation behind what I'm saying? And then if it's a nuanced claim I'm talking about, there's this sliding scale of green light, very acceptable, yellow, like, oh, I don't know if I'd say that, but that's your choice. And red, don't say that again.

Don't even say it out loud. And so that's something that, you know, we, sorry, I lost my train of thought there.

 

[Lauren]

What was that going on? Oh, you have the green, yellow, red, light process.

 

[Stephanie]

Oh, just educationally. Yeah. So we, we like to educate at proof and panel.

We're not trying to scare you and say like, this is the regulation. Do it. I'm going to tell you about the regulation and what I see.

And we can have a discussion to make the right decision for your brand. And I'm going to stop one second because I got to let my dog out. He's distracting me.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah.

 

[Stephanie]

Sorry about that. I knew that was going to happen too.

 

[Lauren]

No worries. It's totally, totally fine. I love that.

I'm a huge animal person. I always joke. I'm always more interested in the animals in the room than the humans anyways.

 

[Stephanie]

My dog is a pretty cool one.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah. I used to, I used to sell window treatments in people's homes. And when there was a pet, their pet would come in.

I'd be like, okay, sales calls off. I'm hanging out with your dog now. I actually, I actually closed several sales because their dog or cat didn't like people, but they liked me.

And they were like, oh my gosh, if my cat liked you or my dog likes you, I'm buying from you.

 

[Stephanie]

It's the good vibes.

 

[Lauren]

It is.

 

[Stephanie]

It's the good vibes.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah. I always, I have, I, not everyone has to have a pet, but if, if you're not, if you can't be around them, then I have a hard time trusting you.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, I can see that.

 

[Lauren]

I love that. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to jump in with another question.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, absolutely.

 

[Lauren]

So you were saying that early on you had that internship and you were hand delivering to USDA, which I, my first USDA brand was interesting because I'd already been in the industry for a while and I'd always just done FDA. And I found that really fascinating how different FDA versus USDA works in relation to USDA has defined words like natural USDA has to approve your label. And ideally you would have a consultant like you helping making sure everything goes through.

So by the time you send it, you don't want it to get kicked back. And if they kick it back, you want to be able to argue with them, which I have done. But FDA, it's almost like FDA is always in the background.

They've, they've published their regulations. A lot of terms don't have, don't have definitions where you want to stay away from those. And we could talk about all natural and watchdog groups in a minute.

But it's just fascinating. And I'm curious as someone helping people, how you usher them forward and understanding just these processes. I mean, just the USDA process alone is daunting if you haven't done it before.

 

[Stephanie]

It is, it is. And it, so how I usher them along.

 

[Lauren]

Or how you work with each of the, or how you work with each of the, you know.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, I think, I think that being in this industry, you know, that every single product and every single brand is going to be very different. So going into that, there's a moment that I just have to kind of lay it out, give them like, you know, this is what we're going to have to go through. And here's what I'm going to grab from you.

Law to document requests so that we can have the full picture before even diving in. With FDA, there's a little more, it's not even leniency, it's I don't need the full picture to tell you things that I see on your label for FDA. For USDA, so many things are defined.

Placement, wordage, everything is so laid out and defined in their guidance and policies that you have to have the full picture to understand not only the finished product, but what's going into it, all the raw materials, sub ingredients. With FDA, I can kind of just question you on those things. Hey, you have a, you know, chocolate chip cookie as an ingredient in your product and there's no sub formula.

Sub ingredients, you need parentheticals, you need a statement after that chocolate chip cookie statement saying what's in the chocolate chip cookie. For USDA, since we have to submit these things, if they had very strange product, obviously, but if they had a chocolate chip cookie in their ingredients, I would need to know exactly what chocolate chip cookie, who they're, you know, I need to see the spec sheet because I need to know what I'm submitting to the USDA is correct. With FDA, you kind of have more control and you can correct it yourself.

 

[Lauren]

So what should, what should a brand prepare? Where should they be in their process to reach out to you and what should they prepare?

 

[Stephanie]

Great question. I think also the answer is it depends on the brand and the product. But, you know, I love to get in early.

I want to be there to talk you through before you decide on a really cutesy fanciful name and then I tell you, yeah, you can kind of put it on there, but you also need your actual statement of identity. You, I want to be there to tell you, like, I love the design idea, but you also need to know that these things cannot be perpendicular to the base of your package. You know, you can't have all vertical text on the PDP and because it's beautiful looking in, in, you know, modern and trendy.

Yeah, there are things. There's a reason why there are statements on labels and you know where to look for them, even subconsciously. And so I like to be up front.

I want to be in that design meeting with your designer.

I'm there to tell you like I love the design idea, but you also need to know that these things cannot be perpendicular to the base of your package. You know, you can't have all vertical text on the PDP and because it's beautiful looking in, you know, modern and trendy.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah.

 

[Stephanie]

There are things, there's a reason why there are statements on labels and you know where to look for them. Even subconsciously. And so I like to be up front.

I want to be in that design meeting with your designer that first time you talk to them because then I can see how they work. I can create a template for them with your information or work on that with you. But most of the time and typically I'm pulled in after that first design is created.

So sometimes I have to be the bad guy and say like, well, you can't really do that or put that there. You need to move this text or this graphic or and that's when I, you know, I'm not actually a bad guy because I explain it all to you. But sometimes I break some hearts and like it is a beautiful design and I know this ruins it.

But, you know, that's why I like to be up front in the beginning of the process. But typically if you bring me in at that step, your designer has created the design. Please do not print your labels.

Come to me.

 

[Lauren]

Hopefully they haven't printed yet.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah. Well, and I see that sometimes when designers say they have experience in CPG. When in reality, there's nothing, no certification out there yet that that says they have this training for regulation.

A lot of them just know placement and not necessarily size. May not know something specific about your product or an ingredient you use or a claim you're making. They can't, they can't speak on your regulatory, that side of things, the compliance.

So, um, even though you have a graphic designer and they're the best in the industry, they are not a compliant specialist.

 

[Lauren]

And, and for everyone listening out there, I've, I've worked with some great designers who really know CPG and packet foods. And to your point, Lauren, they understand, they understand where the NFP needs to be. Where the, where the manufacturing block needs to be, how the ingredient deck needs to go with those.

And for everyone listening, NFP is your nutrition facts panel. Your, your, um, manufacturer block, different people have different names. It's essentially saying manufacturer buyer for, and it's your name and how people can reach you.

And there's regulatory information about what that, what actually needs to be in there. And ideally it really needs to be that, that a consumer can reach the company. And all of this needs to be connected with your ingredient deck or your ingredient list, whatever you want to call it.

But with that said, they, to your point, they don't know claims. They don't understand how some of these things they know. The other one you mentioned was PDP.

So for people to understand your primary display panel, and I'm going to ask you about that in a second, is what, what needs to be on the PDP and how big does it need to be and what that is. So I would love for you to D, you know, kind of decode the PDP and product identity. We've mentioned that a couple of times, and I don't know if everyone always understands that there's actually, products are not just in categories in the grocery store.

There's actually regulated, regulated requirements to let people know what they're buying.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah. So the PDP, the principal display panel is going to be your, the side of your package that is displayed on the shelf to the consumer. There could be one PDP or there could be two, the alternate PDP.

And that's going to be something like a hummus container that has everything it needs on the side. If it's at the front side, if it's stacked in a forward facing refrigerator, or an alternate PDP on the top, on the lid, so that if it's down and you're looking down at it, then you can see everything you need to on the, on the alternate PDP. The PDP needs the statement of identity and it needs a net content statement.

It can house all of your mandatory elements as well. But typically when you have the space, you kind of want to hide the ugly looking nutrition facts panel on the, on the information panel, which is the panel to the immediate right of the, of the PDP. So it needs the statement of identity and it needs the net content statement.

The, the statement of identity could be a standard of identity and a standard of identity is going to be the legal definition of your food. There are legal definitions. Chocolate has to be chocolate, has a minimum amount of, you know, solids and, and fat from cocoa that you need.

And, and ice cream has a maximum amount of air that you can add to it called over run. Things are defined so that products can't be adulterated. We can't add, you know, basically like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of a good example, but nothing's coming to mind.

But we can't add increase specific ingredients to your ice cream and call it ice cream because it's not anymore. It's not ice cream. We, you know, macaroni is macaroni as we know it.

So it is the legal definition, the sometimes bare minimum of what it needs to be. Sometimes it defines the ingredients that need to be in it. Sometimes it defines what cannot be in it.

So it's the legal definition. That's the standard of identity. If there's no legal definition, it goes on to common or usual name, you know, descriptive name, and then fanciful name.

Those are all terms we can discuss them probably later today.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, I, I worked for a company. We made an egg white quiche and our quiche Lorraine because it had bacon in it was a USDA specific regulated product. And we've been making this product for years and we've been having our labels approved by USDA for years.

And then we were changing to a cage free egg and we were putting that call out on our label and we had a new regulator. And all of a sudden this regulator wanted our product to be put into a custard category, which had a very different standard of identity. And to your point about not being able to adulterate, it had very specific requirements about egg percentages, egg white percentages, egg yolk percentages and how and process.

So custard has a process to how it is created. But we had an egg white quiche, so it doesn't fit the standard of custard. And I and my this is when I did hire essentially a you to help us.

And we at that time I did have a USDA USDA. We had our inspector that we worked with actually had left USDA and she we hired her as our as as happens. Right.

She went out on her own as a person to ferry the everything USDA. So we had her come in and we spent a good three months fighting with USDA. We ended up having it escalated, not just to our our inspectors supervisor, but their supervisor.

So went up three layers. I think mostly because we had this high power, you know, used to be an inspector person who knew everybody and how to how to get it. And in the end, we we won.

So I don't want to encourage people to do things wrong with the story that you can win. But I do want to encourage people not to be afraid that if you know you're right, you can fight. It is a pain.

It is too much noise. You're not going to be focused on your company and it's going to cost you. But you can.

So don't be fearful. But yeah, it was a fascinating process. It was an annoying process, but it wasn't in the end.

We were able to get our labels approved. We were able to have keep our egg white quiche because quiche itself, I think, was not is not a standard of identity. So it was a matter of fitting it in some parts or the quiche had to have a gilker.

I mean, it was anyway, it was a mess.

 

[Stephanie]

Something. Yeah, I and you know what? It's like a lawyer.

I don't know all of these things by heart. Sometimes if I see a product I've never seen before, it doesn't mean I can't work with you on it. It means that I have to do a little extra research.

 

[Lauren]

If you knew everything by heart, I would be afraid for you because there's a lot of regulation.

 

[Stephanie]

There are so many regulations, not only and that leads me. I mean, this is a great segue, not only FDA, but then there's FTC and then there's the CBP. So like if you're importing and and then there's the state regulations and then there's the retailer requirements.

And so there's too many for a single person to know. And I think that's a good thing for a founder to realize is that even bootstrapping, you you still need to rely on someone else to so that you can absorb their knowledge and hopefully use them as a mentor and a deciding, you know, partner. Right.

Because there are so many things. And this is this is just like, you know, I consult my own proof and panel. That's just one piece of this giant puzzle that founders are aware of.

 

Right.

 

[Lauren]

So it is fascinating. And and that's something we talk a lot about at Food Business Success is find a who to help with the how. And that's a really important thing, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's in our intro to our podcast, actually.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

 

[Lauren]

Yes, because it's so important and and what and and finding a good who. And again, to your point, your who doesn't need to know everything. No one can know everything.

You need people that can say, you know what, I don't know. But, hey, I know where we can find that I know we can get to the answer. And then when I know the answer, I know the answer.

And you can walk forward as you're as the founder can walk forward with with confidence. Yes, I love it.

 

[Stephanie]

Yeah, big believer in like we can't we can't know everything. And it's okay to admit that.

 

[Lauren]

Yeah, exactly. So, Lauren, I am so excited to have sat down with you today. This was such a great conversation.

I've actually learned some things. So I always love that. For me, anytime I can learn, I'm happy.

Is there any last thing you want to make sure people think about or any information you want to want to give and make sure our founders have in their heads before we sign off?

 

[Stephanie]

Sure. So, well, thank you for being a founder. Number one, because you're doing something that we truly need in this world.

We need different products. We need better products. And so I applaud you for being brave enough to do this.

But then I also I also just, you know, thank you. But I also want you to know my website proof and panel dot com. You can find it.

 

[Lauren]

We'll have it in the notes, too.

 

[Stephanie]

Wonderful.

 

[Lauren]

Wonderful.

 

[Stephanie]

Perfect. Now that I have a calendar link there or a contact form there so you can reach out. It goes directly to me.

And so I would love to talk to you and chat with you about anything compliance, regulatory labeling or generally being a founder. And and I'm so happy you listened and I had so much fun today.

 

[Lauren]

I love that. Thank you so much. And for everyone, as I said, we'll put Lauren's contact in our in our show notes and we'll have it in if you get our email announcing things.

So we'll make sure that's out there. But again, it is proof and panel dot com. And thank you again, Lauren and everyone else.

Have an amazing week.