Full Transcript

Sari 0:00
Welcome to your Food Business Success. This podcast is for early stage entrepreneurs in the packaged food industry ready to finally turn that delicious idea into reality. I'm your host, Sari Kimbell. I have guided hundreds of food brand founders to success as an industry expert and business coach, and it's got to be fun. In this podcast, I share with you mindset tools to become a true entrepreneur and run your business like a boss, interviews with industry experts to help you understand the business you are actually in, and food founder journeys so you can learn what worked and didn't work and not feel so alone in your own journey. Now, let's jump in!

Sari 0:48
All right. Welcome back to the podcast. You guys are in for a real treat. As you know, I took a break from the podcast this summer, but I had to come back. We had to do this podcast with Jane Hamill, and I'm already having a blast. We are dying laughing over here before we even started recording. So I am so, so excited. We're going to be talking about email marketing. Probably your least favorite thing. You just shuttered like email marketing. But we're going to have so much fun, because we have the one, the only Jane Hamill, who is joining us today. So welcome, Jane!

Jane 1:28
Hi everybody! Email is not my least favorite thing, but I feel you.

Sari 1:36
And oh my gosh, and we were just talking about, like, what do you? What do I call you? What's your title, Jane? So why don't you? Because I'm going to mess it up. So you tell me how your clients are referring to you?

Jane 1:48
Okay, well, I'm an OG entrepreneur. I've had multiple different businesses over the years, including being a fashion designer, owning a boutique, selling my clothing line wholesale, the Bloomingdalesacks. I have a native garden design business with a partner now, and mostly I'm a business coach. And the company that I run is called Fashion Brain Academy. But I deal with all kinds of product based businesses and entrepreneurs, and basically what my clients tell me is, Jane, you help me deal with the entrepreneurial crazy brain, so I make more money. So it's a combo of like, what's your strategy? What are your product drops? How are you bringing your product? You know, how you dropping products, or, you know, your collection, planning, whatever. And then are you actually just doing it, because all the great plans in the world if, in the end, you're like, I don't want to send that email, or I don't want to post that thing, because people will think I look stupid. You know, that ain't going to work.

Sari 1:49
I mean, it's the classic great you have a product, you have a website, you have all the things, but now you actually have to go and sell it. So we're talking about yourself enough to do it.

Jane 3:03
Especially for your, I love your clients, by the way, I love, I love every time I'm been working with you and your peeps, they're just like me in the sense that they create the product themselves. So it's very, very close to their heart, and that makes it harder to market. You know, you work for a big company and you're selling pencils, that's one thing.

Sari 3:28
So close to it, yeah, it's your baby, and you're just like, stupid, I don't want to fail.

Jane 3:37
There's real next level mind free to being the person who designs and creates the product. Whether you're you know, you're not making it in your kitchen, probably most of these people, but the person who, if you create and come up with the product, and then you're responsible for selling it, that is a whole new level of entrepreneurship, right?

Sari 4:05
And it's one of the hardest things. I mean, it's a completely different hat. It's completely different role. If we were in an organization, you would have a whole separate marketing, sales team. And I love that you help entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, young, early stage businesses, to figure that out. And you are a fan favorite in Fuel. And we were, I was saying, how have we never had you on the podcast, Jane? Because you and I go way back. We have been colleagues and friends and all sorts of things to each other for over the years. So you've come into our Fuel VIP and to the other bootcamps before to talk about this very important topic. And you are coming back into the bootcamp for this August for 2025 and so I was like, we got to have you on the podcast, hopefully introduce you to the world, because you guys are going to love her, and I love and just be forewarned, things come out of Jane's mouth.

Jane 5:11
I'm sorry. I didn't already have fun on the mind.

Sari 5:17
No, I know you got yourself. I love it, but I think that's also one of the reasons why we align so much, and why people in Fuel and, you know, clients and people I work with really resonate with you as well, because we're all just like doing this work, and we're not trying to make it you're not trying to make it sound higher and mightier and more sophisticated than it is, like, you're just, you're making it real, and I think you just, you get the like, the issues that we're dealing with.

Jane 5:51
I don't know any other way to be. If I could be more polished and look, act more professional, I probably would. But the Midwest girl in me is just like, yeah, no, that happened. This is, yeah, you may. Let's just put it out there. This is just not easy. So if we can share with each other the what's going well and the mistakes that we've made. Like, that's what I want to hear all day from other people too. So like, I'm in Let's go.

Sari 6:21
So I get all your emails. I love following you. You also have a podcast that you're not doing right now, but you've done in the past. And even though your bent is more on fashion and clothing, it's so like, like you said, some of my folks have come and worked with you one on one. You come into my membership and talk, because it all applies like we're talking about products. We're talking about D to C, ecommerce, selling online to people, and you have just embraced email marketing, so that's what we're going to focus on today. So let's just get this out of the way from the beginning. Like Jane, most people they will tell you, I hate email. I hate the number of emails I get. I don't want to be that person. Why? If you're selling ecommerce direct to consumer, why do we have to do email?

Jane 7:15
Well, I guess the first thing is, you don't have to. You can totally not do it. It's up to you, and if you do, you are just not you're leaving money on the table, which I know is a corny thing to say, but the return on investment for email marketing for the last 12 years has not, there is nothing better, okay? The reason email gets such a bad rap is that so many people do it in such an obnoxious way. And if you're just looking at data, according to HubSpot, well maybe it's changed in the last like 10 months, I don't know, but the last things I've seen is like the ROI, the return on investment for every $1 you spend in email, you get $42 back. So Sari, I'm going to give you $1, give me 42 like I'll take that all day. Okay, and so what's fascinating to me is that it's so wrapped up with so much fear and so much annoyance and so much just another email that we get weird about it, and which is fine, and I do too, okay, and sometimes I get overwhelmed and don't send my emails. And, you know, I get it like we all can sometimes struggle. But the thing that I want people to know is there is nothing better for ROI. I have clients, product based businesses. Coaches, for sure, do more than this. I have a lot of different clients, mostly with products. Some are coaches, some are running conferences. Some have a non profit, like it's my coaching is kind of all over the place right now, in the sense of, if the client has a movement behind it, I love it, right? So I'm seeing like, one to 99 one to 87 over a course of a year, not just one email or whatever, obviously. So, I mean, it's not the first year you do it, probably that you're going to get that kind of ROI. But you know what, I'd say, $1 in, $50 out is pretty average, if not more, for the people that I work with. So, you know, there's nothing that beats, or there's ads don't beat, that you're not going to get a row as of you know. So, yeah, it just works. And the key to making it work, however, is to not be a dick and not just send a constant buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff. That doesn't work. That's why people hate it. Everybody hates, you know, DSW, or those of you in Europe, I don't know what's, who sends just like constant, like Old Navy, like constant, you know, emails. I'm not suggesting that at all, and I also, I don't treat email the way most ecommerce brands treat it. So. It might be opposite. It's more like a coach or like, yeah, we're selling physical products, usually, but to treat it the same way as a bigger ecommerce company is, to me, not going to work for small brands or doesn't work as well, and it's boring, and people don't want to open those emails.

Sari 10:24
That's, so, yeah, that's I was like, okay, well, what is it when you're doing it wrong? Which is probably the way that feels really icky to most of us, is like, I can think of, like, the Banana Republics, or the Venus or the Old Navy or whatever, that's in my inbox, you know. But like, I have an inbox that I'm just like, oh, my gosh.

Jane 10:45
I mean, I think it's scary that says marketers ruin everything. Like, there's like, going great, and then all these markets get in the leg, ruin it. And that is facts for email. That is true, right? Ruin SMS. Marketers ruin like, whatever. Okay, so we ruin everything, fine, but if you own a business and you want to get sales, you are already marketer too. You're a maker and a marketer. You're a product designer and a marketer.

Sari 11:11
Yeah, so our sales at the end, if that's your desire, then we have to fill the gap of being a marketer somewhere in there, like, you have to market and sell your product.

Jane 11:23
You're the best person to do it. So, I mean, I can give you a strategy of, like, you know, I don't teach and I don't think y'all should do straight ecommerce email marketing, where it's, like, spreadsheet based, right? If you send this many, this percentage will buy in point, oh, one, and then you're just going to get some sales. Well, okay, that's great if you're Macy's. Or not, great, but you're going to burn out your list. People are not going to want to open that. They're not going to like it. So how do we do that with a limited time, limited budget, with a limited brain space? When running your business, you're probably doing mark a farmer's markets. You're, you know, at the co packers, you're doing all the things you're doing and sending emails. How do you do that? Quick and Dirty so you get that ROI that everybody talks about, they always say the money's in the list. Well, what money? How? You know, that's kind of the vision for you. But if you haven't been sending them regularly. It can feel very overwhelming.

Sari 12:22
And I think, yeah, people come in with like, oh, I got to be that version of that ecommerce email writer, which feels overwhelming. It feels icky, so you avoid it, and you don't have enough emails on your list, like, I tolerate Macy's because I'm, you know, I can just, like, scan over them, and then I wait for the one that I'm waiting for, right? Like, I'll stay on the list. But you don't have that luxury as a small business, right?

Jane 12:53
You don't have the luxury to send that many emails out, right?

Sari 12:57
So what is the alternative, Jane? Like, what does it look like instead? If that's the icky, like, the wrong way to do it. As a small business, what's the right way?

Jane 13:09
I mean, look the wrong way to do it is the way that just doesn't work for you. Okay, so if that works, great, you know, please come back and tell me I did it the quote, wrong way, and it was amazing, great. Like, let's find out what's working for everybody. But I'll tell you what's working now for my clients who are having real success. There's a few things that I would think about. The first is, like, think about emails that you like getting. There are some emails not from your best friend, but from companies or small businesses that you actually look forward to, or when you get them, you're like, oh, somebody's here. I'm going to open that. So the first thing I would think about is think about some emails in your inbox are invited guests, and you're actually kind of happy to see them, and you enjoy it. All right? What are those? Write them down. I don't care if it's like, you know, the water delivery person, if it's the mindset coach, if it's the yoga studio that always has a funny gift, whatever it is, make a list of like, just like, what emails do I enjoy? Okay, and whether you buy from them or not, right? I wouldn't worry about that right now. Just like, which ones do I like getting? Okay. So the first is, there is a reality out there where people want your emails.

Sari 14:23
That's such a great I will stop you there really quick, because I've done this stuff around like, what if questions and like, yeah, what if it's possible that there is a reality where people actually like getting your emails and they want to, they want to receive them, because we just lump ourselves in with all the scammy, sleazy ones and like. But what if it's possible?

Jane 14:47
Just one form of communication, right? So yes, email is very competitive. Yes, people are doing it in a terrible way. Yes, a million things are good or bad. Social media good or bad depends you talk to, depends the day. To make email work for you. Number one, keep in mind, some people actually you like getting some emails. Some people actually are raising their hand and wanting to be interested. Okay. Number two, think about and this is where it's difficult, because, as you know, as a fashion designer, I was so obsessed with designing the product and making sure that the quality was good and making sure that it fit, that the whole marketing was like, well, you know, I don't have time for that, right? So, so number one, please, know some people want to get your emails and think about the ones you like. Number two, think about the cadence of what I would call. You can call lots of different things, but selling versus value, how to engagement community, whatever. Okay, so the ratio of value emails versus pitch emails does not have to be what you're getting from other brands. Okay? If you're a newer, smaller, under a million dollar company, whatever, you know, half a million, $10 whatever. It doesn't matter. You can send a lot more emails with simply, like, you know, a couple different themes. It can be behind the scenes, questions we're getting. One of the emails that I would say that a theme that almost always works was this just happened. Okay, so I'll give you an example. So Scott from Elevated Gains is a client that I met through your company, and he's amazing, and I'm obsessed with his bars. I just doubled my order.

Sari 16:40
I brought a whole baggie of them, and they have helped me so much on this trip.

Jane 16:48
Yeah, the protein bars, you guys. I mean, 20 grams of protein doesn't taste like? I swear, I think not tea. It's true, right? So I want that product, and I want his emails. But regardless whether he's a client or not, what he's done is he is very concerned about value versus pitch, and so I don't know what his ratio was. We used to say, like three to one, which is pretty incredible, like three value emails to one pitch. So if you sent one every week, it would be value based, you know, A, B, C, and then week four would be like, buy this now. And here's a reason, and here's a psychological trigger, like scarcity or timeliness, or maybe it's on sale, I hope not, but maybe it's a value add, or whatever. So what are those value you know, right now, I'd probably go to two to two, like 50-50, if you're uncertain about emails, because sending those quote, unquote value emails is what gets people to open your pitch emails. Okay? And the mistake is, everybody's pitching all the time in their email, so nobody wants to open it, right? So what he does, and there's a couple clients that do a lot of similar things, but there's two things that he is. One is he does, like, a general business update, which is not for everybody to do, because I don't really want to share details about the back end of my business. He does, and that's amazing for him, and people love it. So he'll be like, oh, July update, we had our biggest market ever, or we had our worst month ever. Like, he'll put it out there, and people love it. And not just other entrepreneurs. His customers love that. Okay, so if you're willing to share, like, some of your business journey, they love that. The danger is you just attract a bunch of other entrepreneurs, if that's your main thing. So that's part of it. But the one thing that he does that the this just happened, email, is the best. It's storytelling at its easiest. So you go to what happened this week in my biz, right? So let's say you're a client of mine who just did a big show in Milwaukee this weekend, and she had some very funny stories of what people said when they came to her booth. Alright, so you just pick one. Okay. So for her, it was like, I want to buy that sign, and I'm not taking no for an answer. Okay, that's her subject line. Okay, and so she's like, hey, guys, just got back from this XYZ show in Milwaukee, FYI, this was the best seller there. Have you seen it? This guy came to the booth. He said this, he like, insisted on buying her sign in the booth, so it's related to her business, but it's not about the products. But she did, like, drop like, she literally just says, as if she was writing to one person, which is really helpful, if you just think about, like, who's the ideal person that would get this story and think it's funny. And so, you know, writing storytelling emails is not easy, but just like, literally documenting what happened this week is easy, right? You're just like, like. Like, if you talk it into your phone and then you it's transcribed, you could just cut and paste that chisel practically, right? So basically, it's just like, this dude wouldn't take no for an answer in well, you know. And so he's like, I'll give you $10 for that compass sign. I'll give you 15. I'll give you 20. He ended up paying $35 for her sign. And it's funny. And then she also has the opportunity to say, and this was the best seller at the show. We're sold out of sizes X and Y, but you can get ZD.

Sari 20:18
So there's like, yeah, some interest, some scarcity.

Jane 20:22
So value is not tips or how to use it or recipes. Value can just be a true funny story that, this just in that sort of like just got off the phone with a new something, people love that. They love it. They love it when you're honest. They love it when you just tell them what happened. You don't have to come up with five ways to, you know.

Sari 20:47
And that's fine if you do like that can be something. But I think what you, what's different about, what I love about your approach, is like, yeah, you don't have to, like, overthink this. You don't need to get all this AI involved or do all these graphics. Scott's emails are so fun, right? And they're just, like, a quick photo and like some text and that's it.

Jane 21:12
He barely uses HTML at all anymore, and he used to for like, the last six years, and then when we started reading together, I'm like, just don't do it. Just do text based with like, a link and maybe one picture of yourself, and it really working. One of his best emails was this just in, this funny story was, the subject line was, and what I love about Scott is, especially as he's, we have worked with him over the months, is he's taking more and more risks and be like, screw it, I'll just send that as just send that as just one more email, right? He's just worried about like that people won't like it, or it's wrong, or it looks funny. So he's gotten, not that he had a ton of email here, but we all have it. Now I'm like, please don't subscribe. If you're not going to open them. It helps my open rate but one of his best ones was, you're charging $5 for this. That's effing ridiculous. And he just said, hey, this is what the lady said. This is what she said. This is what happened. Then she tasted it, then she bought a box, haha. PS, this is the flavor she bought, and moved it back to the lemon flavor. And I think he sold like 10 that day. No picture, like, just a little story. That's it. So if we think about, like, three to one, so you'd have, like, maybe it's behind the scenes, or here's a business update, or here I am packing orders or whatever. And then maybe you say, this just happened, you know, here's a story about something to do with something, and by the way, that's the product that has to do with it, you know. PS, this is our best seller this week, like, whatever. And then the next one could be value, like, three ways to three reasons your body needs more protein. I'm just sticking with the Scott thing, right? You know, if you have the salsa, you have a great salsa client that I love.

Jane 23:02
Yeah, Maggie.

Jane 23:05
So hers could easily be worst salsa recipe ever, right? And all she'd say is, you know, it took me a long time to get my salsa this good. It used to kind of suck. Here's a picture when I started, but I fixed it now, and you could go here and buy it, right? That's sample, right? And the last one could be new flavor, back in stock, buy a bundle mystery like straight ecom, right? If you did that one. So if you did, even if that was your cadence, you're going to make it. And then as you go further, then you could have two more heavily sales emails and two more storytelling value tips emails, that kind of thing.

Sari 23:53
Yeah. And I loved your metaphor of like, being an invited guest, because I get those emails from people that I don't even I mean, sometimes I just don't, I'm never going to buy their product, but I'm like, I love their emails, but you just never know. Like, I might tell somebody else about it or forward it on to somebody, right? Like, I might not even be the person that's going to buy it.

Jane 24:16
If you're opening someone's emails, odds are someone's going to buy something. Like, if it's not you, it's your mom, your sister, your brother, your best friend, your neighbor.

Sari 24:25
If it's that good of an email, I'll be like, forward it to somebody else. Like, oh my gosh, this reminded me of you or whatever, right? And so I love the invited guests. And I think what we're talking about here is like, you're building relationship, and that's built in, like, tiny moments, not in, you know, it's not just the Christmas and Easter and Fourth of July. It's in the little moments of day to day interaction.

Jane 24:49
And I guess the thing is, the big thing that's hard to see is, if you want to sell more with email, stop trying so hard to sell. Yeah. It's kind of brutal, because you're like, I'm going to spend this time on this email, and I'm not even trying to get sales off of it, but if you don't send those, you're not going to get sales the ones when you're really trying to get sales. So the cadence, the other thing is that people, I think, don't realize is your emails can be a lot shorter. I think people have come from a email newsletter background, and they think they need to have tons of pictures and tons of tips and tons of sections and, no.

Jane 24:50
Yeah, I'm still trying to break myself a little bit of that habit, because I, you know, I came up in marketing in the days of email newsletters, and here's our monthly update and the MailChimp stuff, right?

Jane 25:46
Yep, and it's like it's all designed and this and the hierarchy of text. Forget all of that, yeah, a text based email, maybe one picture, a selfie of you, or a product and a buy now, you're good, but you can really dumb it down.

Sari 26:01
I think what we're talking about here is like, and you know, Kristen Graham as well, she talks a lot about the attention economy, right? And like, there's so much going on. And if we simplify it, and we try to make it less flashy and less like, like, it actually has a more positive impact. Like we're more curious as the receiver, and it feels more authentic. I think that energy comes through.

Jane 26:16
Yeah, and you know, it does take a certain suspension of disbelief to think that's the work. So if anybody thinking like, okay, I should try this value versus tips, I don't know what to say, but maybe I don't care that much anymore. Maybe this is going to release me from some kind of, like, email has to be a big deal, right? And so maybe you say, I'm going to, for the next, you know, two months, I'm going to send, you know, an email every other week. Maybe that's it. You just start somewhere, and you start with, like, the kind of little update, or the kind of email you would send a good friend, and so you just, you know, it can be really casual. It just doesn't have to be that as policy as you think it has to be.

Sari 27:12
I think, yeah, let's challenge everybody listening. Like, if you well, I think everybody just take that challenge, try one. I mean it, you can look at it like an experiment. And let's just send one or two and try the email, you know, the text base, and simplify it. And it's kind of like, what is that old, you would know this being in fashion, right? That Chanel line that, like, look in the mirror real fast and take off the first thing that that catches your eye. So you like, simplify a little bit more.

Jane 27:41
You know, it can be, I would think of it as like a micro email. What's a micro email you could send? Okay, if you have no idea what to send, then do this. Send a quick tour of your studio. Send, like, people ask me all the time how I got started. This, this, this, here's a picture. When I was last, here's a picture now. PS, something's dropping next week. Bye, like, that's it. That's it. It can be so basic and it still works. But I look at them as a whole. You know, the sum of like, all the emails you sent that, like, this email, this result. Like, people always like, well, that email made me $400 and that one made me 890 like, none. That workout didn't give you that muscle either. You know, it's like a series of things.

Sari 28:32
It's the compounding. And you're becoming, you're getting a relationship with, with people.

Jane 28:39
Yeah. When you know, when you said, like, sometimes I open the emails and then I know I'm never going to buy something from that person. Okay, so you think, right? So there's a woman who sent out an email and I'm like, well, I don't really focus on social media that much from my brand, so I'm never going to buy from her anymore, right? But I still like her, and she sent an email on April 1. And it was, this is off color. So is c u n t, this is versus c u n t, y, there's a difference. Okay, C word versus C word E, there's a difference. And I was like, what in the actual heck? How did that even get through the spam filter? Okay, so I open it because I know she's funny as hell. And it was, you know, I've been noticing lately there's a difference. And let's take this quiz. Take this quick quiz to see which one are you or who you're surrounded by. And I was dying laughing, and then I didn't realize until the next day it was April Fools. So I opened that email, and within a couple weeks, I ended up booking a private session with her to go over my, I am giving her, like, $400 because she's funny, and then I know she's talented, and then. I was paying attention to the emails that weren't a joke, so I saw her offer, and I jumped on it for the native gardening business. So it works on me. And I'm like, a snarky you know, OG like, those tricks are not going to work on me. I bought it.